Curse

Phades · Sep 24, 2005, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by glockjs

again. you are 100% right. i digress. there is no such thing as a condition or hex in GW. sorry for my useless spam again

If you are relying on blinding flash to disable one or more rangers, you are fighting a losing energy war. Ineptitude has a chance to get off fast enough to avoid the possible interupt via ranger and land the blindness on one ranger as can signet of midnight if you manage to survive being nose to nose with said ranger continually.

However, to futher indulge in your line of thinking, snap casting condition removal doesnt exist in GW either. The other hexes to "stop" or slow down a ranger are much fewer than you think as the skills in question are not linked to the bow refire rates and are prone to being interupted themselves if the ranger has them as the target for disruption due to their cast times. If the worst hex they are looking at facing is blurred vision, then that is not much to be concerned about in general as things like inspired hex also exist.

FrogDevourer · Sep 24, 2005, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Glockjs, you are not spamming, but you're unwilling to try and understand why your arguments are accurate but irrelevant in this discussion.

The topic of this thread is: "ranger interrupt skills: are they more powerful than they should be? and if so, what is the best way to put them in line with other interrupts and other ranger skills?".

Yes you can counter an interrupt ranger. We understand your point. We really do.

That doesn't make 'interrupt ranger skills' balanced or unbalanced. Period.

That's why using the "can be countered" rethoric is considered irrelevant here. Because it is a Non sequitur. Even if your premises (facts) and conclusion (balanced/unbalanced) can be accurate, the conclusion is not a consequence of the premises.

NB:Their success rate is not relevant either: even if they were obscure skills ignored by 90% of GW players, they would still be unbalanced.

Calrisian Nantos · Sep 24, 2005, 12:02 PM // 12:02

Hahaha I love it,nothing is more satisfying to me than interupting a caster over and over and over,especially necros and monks,I just love to see your little heads flap

Dzan · Sep 24, 2005, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by snepp

Were you running that a couple days ago? Looks awfully familiar to a team that halted a 21 win streak we were working on. (btw, we got destoyed

)

Possibly, its about all we have been playing in TA for the past two weeks.

Spookie Noobie · Sep 24, 2005, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calrisian Nantos

Hahaha I love it,nothing is more satisfying to me than interupting a caster over and over and over,especially necros and monks,I just love to see your little heads flap

Honestly, concerning the Ranger Interrupt build, I'm not certain if it's bugged or broken - if it needs fixing or nerfing. I do know this: 90% of the Rangers I encounter in Random PvP are using this build and more often than not their teams are winning.

In most cases they are totally able to shutdown the opposing team's Monk. More often than not that's me, Hi.

If "this" Ranger build is not to be touched with then my suggestion is to give some kind of boost to Casters in general.

If things do not change (or you do not take out the Ranger first) then as your team's Monk/Healer this is my pre-emptive apology for our being defeated by their team's Interrupt Ranger.

The Ranger Interrupt build needs to be brought more in line with the other classes.

Balance.

/me trots off with an aching, wobbly neck.

Mhydrian · Sep 24, 2005, 06:09 PM // 18:09

A ranger interrupt build is easily avoided, and is subject to ten thousand different ways to shut it down. If ANET nerfs anything with melee or rangers they would be fools. There is blind, necro hexes, stances, monk spells (guardian, aegis), using terrain to avoid arrows.

Lets compare this to a mesmer who is a anti-caster built. How many ways can you defend yourself against one of these? YOU CANT. You have to kill the mesmer fast, or go offensive with another mesmer perhaps. Yet somehow this is acceptable, and yet a ranger who is able to shut down a caster is not acceptable, even when the counters against that build are easily accessible.

One of the very few counters to cheesy mesmers is a interrupt ranger. They've already stripped NR, so encahntments are ridiculous. Like illusionary weapon, ether renewal and the tons of monk enchantments. This was a tombs fix that has made it virtually impossible to counter overpowered enchants in the random arenas.

Casters have it too good in this game. Especially mesmers who arent even subject to line of sight restrictions. Im sure the OP thinks that a frag mesmer is perfectly fine. They want to play an overpowered class with no effective counters against it.

Red Locust · Sep 24, 2005, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by glockjs

so who draws the line between fact and opinion??? you?.....and what is an opinion for if you can't state it if somebody just squashes because they have power....i can name 50 skills off the top of my head that are anti "attack". but you might dub that un factual as well. why? because you can right............

glockjs, I don't think you understand the difference between "overpowered" and "counterable".
If rangers were not counterable, every single person in GW (or just about) would be playing them right now. This is an extreme case that you never want to get to. Overpowered is something like ether renewal, that completely blows all other options (in this case, energy management in particular builds) out of the water.

I'm assuming you're arguing that there's nothing overpowered about interrupt rangers (I tried looking at your past few posts but saw nothing other than philosophical rants on what opinion is). Now, opinion is all fair and good, but when it's going up against cold hard facts, you lose out.

That interrupt ranger that was posted (if you want a clearer example, look at this thread and read my post on the changes I would make) outclasses pretty much any other ranger build interms of damage AND interrupts. Some might argue that a choking gas/practiced stance/TF ranger might edge out this guy in terms of interrupts, but the performance is very slightly better and the damage is not nearly as good.

Now rangers in general are good for 3 things: damage, interrupts, and spirits. For the most part, spirit rangers have gone kaput after the update to spirits, so it's down to option #1 and option #2.

If you could have the best of option #1 AND the best of option #2 in one ranger build, would you choose anything else?

Vermilion Okeanos · Sep 24, 2005, 06:24 PM // 18:24

omg people, leave froggy alone...

For ALL the good things he had done, he got no credit/praise for it... for ONE that is probably not EVEN a bad thing he done, he get people attacking him... and you people are SERIOUSLY stealing this thread.

If you people hate frog so much, make a new thread about it and pm all the people who is screaming and crying to go to that topic.

If I was a moderator, I would have remove all these debate about froggy and the others by now. Froggy can't since he is under attack.

Don't take good doing for granted.

------
Back to topic... wow 52 straight? was that team arena pure or random? if it was random... NERF j/k... honestly I wonder how are like going to nerf it for it to be balance in arena... even without preperation this thing can kill... people would just focus on 16 marks and 14 expertise and viola, your butt in the ashes. Techincally they already nerf the quickshot quite a bit for forcing it to be 1 sec minimum recharge.

Dzan · Sep 24, 2005, 06:37 PM // 18:37

It was team arena, notice we were all in the same guild, heh.

In those 52 matches we faced a "mirror match" about 5 times and none of them came close to beating us. While I feel the build is powerful, it defintely takes skill. So many times I cast Shielding Hands on myself and THEN got hit by the barrage of interrupting arrows, which did little or nothing to me. People have to learn when and how to time their attacks.

Akathrielah · Sep 24, 2005, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mhydrian

A ranger interrupt build is easily avoided, and is subject to ten thousand different ways to shut it down. If ANET nerfs anything with melee or rangers they would be fools. There is blind, necro hexes, stances, monk spells (guardian, aegis), using terrain to avoid arrows.

Lets compare this to a mesmer who is a anti-caster built. How many ways can you defend yourself against one of these? YOU CANT. You have to kill the mesmer fast, or go offensive with another mesmer perhaps. Yet somehow this is acceptable, and yet a ranger who is able to shut down a caster is not acceptable, even when the counters against that build are easily accessible.

One of the very few counters to cheesy mesmers is a interrupt ranger. They've already stripped NR, so encahntments are ridiculous. Like illusionary weapon, ether renewal and the tons of monk enchantments. This was a tombs fix that has made it virtually impossible to counter overpowered enchants in the random arenas.

Casters have it too good in this game. Especially mesmers who arent even subject to line of sight restrictions. Im sure the OP thinks that a frag mesmer is perfectly fine. They want to play an overpowered class with no effective counters against it.

Umm... stop basing your arguments off of random arenas please. Ten thousand ways eh? Love your ability to over exaggerate. There is infact very little you can do about this build in particular, especially if the ranger is attacking you.

And a mesmer who is a "anti-caster built" has little in offensive capability while this ranger build has both high damage and interrupt capability. In fact the damage on this build is actually higher than supposed dps builds that you can make with rangers, which is one of the reasons why its deemed ridiculous.

Mesmers are a pure support class with very little options of standing alone, which is why its abilities are potent. Rangers on the hand, have the ability to remain a potent attack class while having other secondary abilities at hand, how effective this is, really varies from build to build. That is the strength of ranger verstility. To put it simply a mesmer must devote themselves to a specific purpose, while having all of the caster maluses and being a priority target to boot, rangers don't have this problem.

Enchantments are hardly overpowered its just that enchantment removal is underpowered, the concept of "strategic removal" is a complete and utter joke. But thats an argument for another topic altogether.

There are plenty of anti-caster skills in this game, use them.

Btw Fragility mesmers are fine, if your team can't deal with them, tough, get better. If you can't see the reason why Fragility Mesmers are ok and why this particular ranger build/set of ability isn't , I suggest you play around with the build and try a team build based on it in tombs before you say anything.

Mhydrian · Sep 24, 2005, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Little offensive capability? A mesmer can totally shut down a caster and kill him if he knows what hes doing. You dont have to go 16 in attribute points to make effective builds.

Mesmers are the MOST dangerous class in the game. They get taken out before monks alot of the time. And yet on top of the HUGE offensive potential of a mesmer, it needs to survive against a spefic class designed to counter casters using a specific build desinged to counter casters?

Welcome to balance, or some vague semblance thereof.

entropy · Sep 24, 2005, 07:17 PM // 19:17

I am personally SO sick of the nerfing. Nerf Spirit spam while overnerfing the spirits as well. Personally as a ranger distracting is what rangers do best. Their dmg cannot compete with an axe war with eviscerate/executioners. Their interupts aren't as good overall as the mesmers. Their arrows do have a chance to miss. Most of the anti-warrior skills work against them. Personally you should just take out the whole ranger class. A-Net should work on it till the expansion and then put them back in. So many things about it are broken in a sense. I love my ranger to death and I have been running the build. Punishing is not worth the elite. Escape? even in PvE I would never touch it. If you nerf distractions at least boost something else.

. In my opinion its kind of like a water ele compared to an earth ele. Earth being the other classes just does it in general better than water. I think this goes back to the ranger being the jack of all trades. Being decent at everything and good at nothing so when a build comes out and is actually good everyone and their mother wants a nerf.

Akathrielah · Sep 24, 2005, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by entropy

I am personally SO sick of the nerfing. Nerf Spirit spam while overnerfing the spirits as well. Personally as a ranger distracting is what rangers do best. Their dmg cannot compete with an axe war with eviscerate/executioners. Their interupts aren't as good overall as the mesmers. Their arrows do have a chance to miss. Most of the anti-warrior skills work against them. Personally you should just take out the whole ranger class. A-Net should work on it till the expansion and then put them back in. So many things about it are broken in a sense. I love my ranger to death and I have been running the build. Punishing is not worth the elite. Escape? even in PvE I would never touch it. If you nerf distractions at least boost something else.

. In my opinion its kind of like a water ele compared to an earth ele. Earth being the other classes just does it in general better than water. I think this goes back to the ranger being the jack of all trades. Being decent at everything and good at nothing so when a build comes out and is actually good everyone and their mother wants a nerf.

I have no qualms about rangers being able to interrupt well, its just that with Punishing shot + distracting + savage shot + kindle/conjure, you have 3 interrupts that deal alot of damage as well. Interrupts or damage not both with the same skills, that would be the best way to rebalance.

Nothing in game can compare to the spiking ability of the eviserate/executioners combo, so your point is semi-moot. Take heart in the fact that with certain builds you deal high sustained, ranged damage, with the ability to spike that is second to only that of the eviserate/executioners combo. Not only is your armor better than elementalists, you outdamage them by far as well, while still having enough room in your skill bar to bring 3 or 4 skills devoted to complementing/supplementing your role.

Punishing is definatly worth being an elite. Escape on the other hand, is more of a pve skill.

Ranger interrupts are better than mesmers interrupts since they are 1.Cheaper 2. Recharge A LOT faster 3. Generally Interrupt SKILLS and not just spells like mesmer interrupts are typically limited to.

Arrows can be dodged, but the ironic thing is, while the character is strafing and dodging your arrows, he is dead weight, he can't do anything , not casting, attacking, healing, whatever, just strafing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mhyrdian

Little offensive capability? A mesmer can totally shut down a caster and kill him if he knows what hes doing. You dont have to go 16 in attribute points to make effective builds.

Mesmers are the MOST dangerous class in the game. They get taken out before monks alot of the time. And yet on top of the HUGE offensive potential of a mesmer, it needs to survive against a spefic class designed to counter casters using a specific build desinged to counter casters?

Welcome to balance, or some vague semblance thereof.

Kill him with what? Wastrel's Worry ? Mind Wrack ? Give me a bloody break. And if you are talking about fragility combos, a mesmer can be a fragility mesmer or a shutdown/other mesmer, not both at the same time. By the way rangers are great at killing mesmers, since they are one of the hardest classes to shutdown in game. You heard me right, rangers. Rangers are not effected by anti-melee spells and shrug off anti-caster spells, the spells that target rangers are quite narrow.

And yes mesmers are meant to be dangerous, because nearly all of their abilities are indirect. They don't heal, buff [typically] or kill [typically]. Sure you can make a buff mesmer, but necros will out do you, and you can make that cute fragility mesmer, but don't expect to get far in tombs.

entropy · Sep 24, 2005, 09:30 PM // 21:30

The fact is though that rangers interupt. You can basically just cast the skill again. The only one that disabels is distracting shot. Other than that the caster can just cast again. You are right about strafing and not doing anything but an aeigs would work if it were not for the fact that kindle always hits. Personally i think that if the arrow misses the prep should miss as well. This ranger build is basically like a frag mesmer. spirit shackles is the only counter i think as of having any great effect. Making the prep not hit if the arrow misses would and could solve many problems. Therefor a monk could use the time to cast guardian or another monk cast guardian on him and have a chance of healing him/herself. Anti-MELEE spells do not work on rangers but what about as mentioned above spirit shackles, faintheartedness or spiteful spirit. They work but only to a degree but they will have some effect. Nerf the distractions if u must

but cmon boost something else.

dargon · Sep 24, 2005, 10:02 PM // 22:02

I can agree with making some preps not happen if the arrow misses, kindle and poison for example, and I believe poison doesn't go off if the arrow misses. Ignite on the otherhand has an explosive component and should hit, it also does less dmg than kindle because of this. I have an interrupt build that I use in both pve and pvp to great effect, whether or not I'm alone or with other rangers, and I believe the kindle going off hit or miss is a bug since a miss with melandrus or poison does not still cause the preperation effect. I don't think the interrupts should be messed with, just fix how the prep is working.

Silmor · Sep 24, 2005, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by entropy

The fact is though that rangers interupt. You can basically just cast the skill again. The only one that disabels is distracting shot. Other than that the caster can just cast again.

After the regular recharge of the skill completes. Oh, the recharge is 60 seconds? Well, you're screwed! Ofcourse you also lose the energy investment as well, and still suffer from any exhaustion the spell caused you. Your 'fact' only holds for Signets with an instant recharge (such as Resurrection Signet), and for nothing else. And at the same time you took away what the target was hoping to launch into the fray. Their monk won't cast his heal. Their elementalist won't put up his ward. Their mesmer can't cast his backfire. Even if interrupts did 0 damage, you're offering a significant contribution to your party.

Quote:

Originally Posted by entropy

This ranger build is basically like a frag mesmer. spirit shackles is the only counter i think as of having any great effect.

No, it's not. A frag mesmer uses his chain hoping that the opponent either doesn't expect it or isn't prepared to deal with it, if they are, he's pretty much screwed because short of cheap killing power he doesn't have much more to offer a team. An interrupt ranger has tools to stop counters used against him, and he uses them accidentally most of the time while tearing a target up. Oops, was that your Guardian? Sorry, didn't mean to interrupt Spirit Shackles. It's offense and defense in one, and for a defensive/control build it's actually better at offense than standard offense builds due to the interrupts carrying preparations.

EndobioticChaos · Sep 24, 2005, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mhydrian

A ranger interrupt build is easily avoided, and is subject to ten thousand different ways to shut it down. If ANET nerfs anything with melee or rangers they would be fools. There is blind, necro hexes, stances, monk spells (guardian, aegis), using terrain to avoid arrows.

Lets compare this to a mesmer who is a anti-caster built. How many ways can you defend yourself against one of these? YOU CANT. You have to kill the mesmer fast, or go offensive with another mesmer perhaps. Yet somehow this is acceptable, and yet a ranger who is able to shut down a caster is not acceptable, even when the counters against that build are easily accessible.

One of the very few counters to cheesy mesmers is a interrupt ranger. They've already stripped NR, so encahntments are ridiculous. Like illusionary weapon, ether renewal and the tons of monk enchantments. This was a tombs fix that has made it virtually impossible to counter overpowered enchants in the random arenas.

Casters have it too good in this game. Especially mesmers who arent even subject to line of sight restrictions. Im sure the OP thinks that a frag mesmer is perfectly fine. They want to play an overpowered class with no effective counters against it.

And exactly how many mesmer interrupts do damage? Oh that's right, ONE. That's a whopping 107 damage for all the mesmer interrupts COMBINED. Either you didn't bother reading the whole thread or you're incredibly dense. In case you haven't noticed it's not the interrupts people are saying are imballenced, it's the damage that goes with them. And any idiot should be able to see that interrupt skills should not do more damage over any amount of time than pure damage skills. So if you want to keep the ranger skills the way they are, then why don't we add 100+ damage to all the mesmer interrupts on top of what they already do? And then we'll make three of the best spammable damage skills for all the other classes do interrupts too. Then maybe you can consider the current ranger setup ballanced.

I have both a Ranger and a Mesmer and I love them both, but this nonsense clearly has to be changed.

Silmor · Sep 24, 2005, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Mega

Wow. As I predicted when NR got nerfed because nobody could beat it...interrupt teams would form. Now, there are calls for that to be nerfed as well. Why is it that whenever Rangers find yet another way to defeat noobs, its all "nerf them! too overpowered!"

This isn't about not being able to defeat rangers, a point you missed back in the NR days as well. It's about those people running these rangers who instead of keeping the big winning secret to themselves and lashing out at anyone who tries to touch their precious build, bring it out in the open to say "hey, this doesn't seem right, this is disproportionally effective compared to other options". It's the old beta mentality of trying to make this a fun game instead of just being concerned with winning.

twicky_kid · Sep 24, 2005, 10:54 PM // 22:54

EVERYONE STOP FOR A MOMENT!!!!

we are way off topic. if you got something to say about ranger nerfing take it some where else. this is nothing about nerfing rangers. this was made as a warning of what i see as the next FLAVOR OF THE MONTH. with good reason.

all the people that are yelling that QZ and serpent's attribute points spread is too much (saw it earlier) is crazy. kindle, QZ, and serpent's are all wilderness survival so i don't know what you where talking about eariler.

complaints about spirit spam being nerfed, again take it somewhere else.

this is not a debate on: DAMAGE, ENERGY COST, IGNORING REFIREING RATE OF BOW, or PREPERATIONS.

this is a debate on the effectiveness of ranger interrupts and their RECHARGE RATES.

with QZ in play and serpents concussion shot and distracting becomes 4 sec recharge, savage becomes 2 sec recharge, and punishing becomes 3 sec recharge (btw punishing is an avg 100+ dmg a hit w/kindle so its well worth it). i could spam these one after another for the entire battle which will be about 1 minute max anyways.

the recharge is what makes them so deadly in the first place. the dmg and refire rate is fine considering you do have to hit with the arrow and it does have a slight delay on interrupt due to flight time. refire couldn't be abused with recharge a little higher keeping them from being spammed. dmg would be lowered b/c less attacks in xx seconds. not like this has to be changed much. even a 13-15 sec recharge would put it into balance.

not going list an entire team build b/c i'm trying to prevent the abuse from happening.

Goonter · Sep 24, 2005, 11:02 PM // 23:02

You should list it just so it will be abused.
Cause more grief, create more demand for action and more pressure for a quick respones.